Podcast: John Normand and the US compression trade

This transcript has been automatically generated and may contain errors or inaccuracies. It is provided for reference only and should not be considered a fully accurate record of the conversation.

Amrita

Hello everyone! I'm super excited that we've got Jeff Curry with us as a guest author. Hopefully this is going to be the first of many that we get to, sit down, talk about issues and, you know, converse, going forward. Everybody knows who Jeff is. I don't think. Jeff, you need an introduction. Jeff, was synonymous with commodities, and Goldman Sachs for decades.

Amrita

But I do think it's worth talking about what you're doing now, which is you're chief strategy officer at Energy Pathways at Carlyle. So before we dive into the meat of, you know, commodity markets, which is your bread and butter, tell me a little bit about what's this new role?

Jeff

Great. Well, thank you, Amrita. It's an absolute it's a pleasure to be here. And, you know, I've admired your work over the decades, from some point when we were adversaries between Goldman and Barclays and well over a decade ago. So it's an honor and a privilege to be here. What am I doing in my new role?

Jeff

At Carlyle. You know, let's start with the energy transition. You know, I like to point out is, you know, it's nothing short of chaotic and disorganized. And one of the key reasons for that is the focus only on green at the expense of brown. And why do we use the word energy pathways? Because ultimately it's about those pathways between the brown and the green.

Jeff

And you've got to manage the winding down of the brown is still represents 82% of primary energy, still feeds 8 billion people and creates the pillars to modern society. Things like cement, plastic, steel, ammonia. So I our view here is to focus on both the brown and the green and the potential pathways between the two. And you know, the saying I'd like to say is, you cannot control the emissions unless you own the emissions.

Jeff

And so that's why we want to include Brown in the portfolio. And so that's really the focus of what we're trying to do.

Amrita

It's super exciting. It's funny because I was in Norway yesterday. Without naming names, but you can figure out who in Norway is called that many. But again, speaking at their board meeting and so on, I think there's a real that there is a genuine realization. Now about how you need to own the brown, and it's about decarbonizing that hydrocarbon chain rather than just saying it has to be all green.

Amrita

So I think it's, it is the right time for this, I guess, Carlisle, to kind of look into this because it's very nascent. But I can absolutely see the trend in the market going that way, that, okay, it's no longer about just the green. So. Yeah.

Jeff

Exactly. So exciting.

Amrita

Okay. But look, let's let me ask you the questions I'm sure everybody else wants me to ask you, which is, are you still bullish oil, given that everybody else is pretty bearish?

Jeff

Absolutely, yes. You know, but I think when we think about it on a on a longer term basis, yeah. It we've had some setbacks in Tokyo. Remember where in the shoulder months this is the weakest part for oil. But let's look at the rest of the commodity complex. It is telling you that this supercycle thesis is very much underway right now.

Jeff

And when we think about, commodities, you know, it still depends on what day you measure it, but it's up there with the top performing asset classes, across all the different financial markets. Because of the fact that you have an environment that cyclically supports commodities. But there's also that structural story. And I think everything that happened in copper that we saw last week is an indication of that story.

Jeff

You know, you think about the structural drivers of, of demand, you know, just kind of going back to our supercycle thesis, you know, the way we like, you know, to define it is redlining, oil demand already, redistribution policies, environmental policies and globalization. And copper is the poster child of that. You know, particularly look at what's driving copper more recently, you know, whether if it is green CapEx demand in China, green CapEx demand in the US, in Europe, which, by the way, that stimulus that impacts oil demand just takes a little bit longer.

Jeff

Then I demand, let's don't underestimate the you know, you're going to see a doubling in power generation demand. I don't think we'll get there, but they're going to do a lot of copper in the stimulus again, will stimulate oil demand. And the rest of the commodity complex. And let's don't underestimate the d the d globalization, military demand for, you know, commodities.

Jeff

So it's all there. I, you know, am I confident in the story? Absolutely. You know, we can talk about it later, but there's been some flies in the ointment. You know, one being actually the, you know, the dollar recycling is absent in this one. And then the other issue is, you know, we have a lot of oil creeping into the system from, you know, sanctioned oil is another one.

Jeff

So, but we can talk about those later. But I think the key message here is, yeah, I'm definitely still very much bullish on oil and the commodity complex. And, you know, the recent you know, the last couple of weeks have been a setback on one part of the commodity complex. But look at the metals that they in fact, the one thing we said at the beginning of this back in 2020, copper is the new oil.

Jeff

And that's where the focal point is. But let me remind everybody one thing that I learned in that 27.5 years at Goldman is when one market moves, it's unlikely the rest of them don't move.

Amrita

So I was going to ask you about that. I want to come back to the dollar recycling, because I think that's super important and not something people look at. And one of the things I've always admired about you is you've got such a global picture. Right? I think that's important. But let me ask you about copper. The pushback I'm getting when, you know, we've kind of talked about this, that is the worst of diesel demand declines behind us because industrial metals are kind of potentially pointing to that.

Amrita

But then the flip side is everybody's long copper. And that's why copper has gone up. It's actually not, a fundamental move.

Jeff

By the way. There is some truth to that. And that's the bizarre thing about this is, you know, we go back to, let's say, March. People were comfortably bullish oil, gold and copper. And you asked them what was their number one out of that? Three, it was invariably copper. The fundamental story wasn't there yet. Oil on the other hand, the fundamental story was there.

Jeff

It is still there. Yeah. You cannot sell oil if you were to give it away yet, people will take copper. Copper is a longer term story. We have seen a build in inventory in China that people are concerned about. And we sold off by what, what, 3 or 4% the other day because of that concern. But we're back up again this morning.

Jeff

In contrast, we look at oil. Oil is back. Where did the inventories are low. We have seen an inadequate build this year. So but it shows you that that sentiment and that momentum that is in copper is continue to push it forward while in oil you don't see it there. Well, I just want to make a couple comments about copper that are important for for oil is there's a lot of concern about the property market in China, obviously, and recent concerns about, you know, diesel demand and in oil.

Jeff

So in terms of thinking about, the, you know, the demand coming out out of China is what China has done, is replaced its property market as a driver of growth with green CapEx, you know, whether if it is in EVs, solar panels or lithium batteries, there's been a big focus there. It's taking time to readjust that.

Jeff

And that's part of the weakness we saw in 2022, in 2023, as they're making that transition out of property and into, green manufacturing. When we think about green manufacturing, it's less diesel intensive than the property market. So that's one thing to keep in mind. But then you have the knock on effects of the stimulus that this green manufacturing is going to create to the rest of the economy.

Jeff

Once that begins to take hold, it becomes much more positive, for diesel. And when we think about the, the medium term outlook, we see that manufacturing has likely bottomed everywhere in the world, including Europe, which will help reinforce diesel. And I think the one thing with diesel in metals demand, because they're both showing, or at least with metals demand in manufacturing are underscoring this rebound.

Jeff

The weakness that we're seeing in diesel is also being compounded supply from, you know, like renewable diesel or biodiesel, just new refining capacity. Refining capacity. Exactly. And there's I think people are underestimating the potential rebound there. Also, let's not forget it was really warm in one Q, which, you know, you know, I like to remind people decent diesel and heating oil are essentially the same thing.

Jeff

And so there's some, weakness, head headwinds there that, we think are more temporary.

Amrita

Yeah, I, I will I echo this because, you know, we just got back from China and we've got a big China team as well. And they've highlighted both on the macro side and on the commodity side, that there has been a bit of a delay in some of the stimulus right. Coming through, especially Q1. It was expected, but I think the government ended up spending too much time in the details it hasn't hit.

Amrita

And to your point, it's a there's a lag. Yeah. Right. So usually it's metals and then but but but you know taking a step back because you you raised this briefly as well. You've you you've been in Goldman for 27 years and then and now you're, you've got this new position in college. Why do you think oil in some ways is hated so much?

Amrita

Because my struggle is I, I don't disagree with anything you're saying on a medium term level. I get the short term. We've built some inventories, but some people are just not excited by oil, whether it be OPEC's spare capacity, be it or shale production is going to grow forever. Do you sense that there's just been a little bit, I guess maybe because Russia just we just never lost the barrels.

Amrita

People have not made a lot of money. Yeah. It just seems like like you said in March, everybody was still willing to go after copper and not after oil.

Jeff

But even when they were willing to go after it, like we saw in March, the enthusiasm was a fraction of what it would have been 5 or 10 years ago. And I think it goes really at the core, the terminal value within the energy equities. People do not see a long term story here. It's there is no growth story.

Jeff

It's a it's a terminal value of nothing with a wind down, forward outlook. And as long as that remains the case, it's going to be unlikely that investors are going to embrace this market. But the reality of it is demand is charging ahead this year above trend. It, you know, 1.3 to 1.5 million barrels a day. Off the back of very, very strong growth.

Jeff

Yeah. It was part due to the recovery from Covid and 21, 22 and 23. But I think the key message here is there's no indication that longer term growth story is still not there. I don't want to get into the political debate about whether that's right or wrong, but I think the key message here is there's no indication when we look at this on a global basis, that oil demand is really beginning to slow down, even, you know, with the penetration of EVs around the world.

Jeff

By the way, the one thing about diesel demand that there has been penetration is LNG, trucks in, in China. So they're I'm not going to say there is not penetration. But the bottom line is we're going through a very rapid global growth, underlying economic growth environment, oil demand is being pushed further even with these drags of like LNG at trucking.

Jeff

And you're above trend. And but it's that unwillingness to see the forward while we take copper. Yeah. We're not backward at it. It's not that you know, we have inventory. It's not, you know, super tight on the front end, but we're willing to buy the copper story because we see the long term benefits, but we don't see it in oil.

Jeff

I think that that's the key reason.

Amrita

I think that's a very good point. And in some ways goes back to what we were talking about, your kind of your new position at Carlyle. And hopefully this is the start. Right? Because I think more and more people are coming around to this idea that oil and gas will stay here for much longer than expected. But yeah, people need to put the money where their kind of thinking is.

Amrita

Right. And the EV story, I would say from China as well, you know, every single Chinese major had, gasoline demand in China peaking in the last year. This year, every single one of them is saying to us now, oh, guess what? Now you're starting to see not just EVs, it's hybrid cars that sales are going up because of long distance driving.

Amrita

And gasoline demand is surprising to the upside. So everybody's now starting to push back for gasoline demand. So yes. And to your point LNG trucking I know Goldman put out something around that. But I think their numbers, we've got only 300,000 barrels per day of displacement. I think I've heard numbers of up to seven, 800,000. So our number is lower for the LNG trucking.

Amrita

But again, it's almost even with these headwinds we are still growing at, you know, 1.2, 1.3, whatever that number is. Demand barrels a million barrels per day. So imagine, the kind of core demand growth that is out there. It's just somehow I feel that messaging has been lost over the past few years, and it's just gone back to peak oil demand, peak oil demand.

Amrita

And yet it never appears. Yeah.

Jeff

It doesn't ma'am. You know the question. Will it appear? Yeah. I like to go back historically, what's different about our approach to environmental policy today versus, let's say, the war on acid rain in the 70s and 80s is that in the 70s and 80s, policy use sticks, i.e. taxes and some type of penalty for consuming the product that you didn't want people to consume.

Jeff

And then you had the carrots with the subsidies. So far, the approach thus far has been all carrots, no sticks, and we wonder why we're not seeing oil demand, contract or, you know, burning carbon and releasing it is outside of a few places in like Europe and California. The sticks i.e. taxes and some type of, you know, cap and trade approach has not been applied on a, on a widespread basis.

Jeff

And, I like to point out we have the tools to solve this problem. We all learned it in econ 101A negative externality. You hit it with a tax. And I like to point out we took a market failure, meaning the inability to price carbon and have now turned it into a government failure, but the inability to levy a carbon price or a carbon tax.

Jeff

And.

Amrita

That is a.

Jeff

Solution, right? That is a solution. So until we get to that point, which we have all learned in econ 101, how to do and how to implement, and we've done it historically on a very successful basis. Till we get to that point, I'm very dubious of the ability to see demand really begin to a contract.

Amrita

I think the problem is we all live in democracies and everybody wants to get reelected. So these issues become very you know, you don't necessarily get reelected if you say energy transition is going to be expensive, that's the bad.

Jeff

Yep. And by the way, when we look at the disinflation that occurred over the last, let's say 18 months, there's a couple points to to keep in mind here is one, it happened globally and was very much synchronized. Two, it occurred against the backdrop of record commodity demand, like oil demand and against very strong GDP growth in the US and China.

Jeff

So was it demand driven? Absolutely not that interest rates cause it. Well, if it wasn't demand driven it could not have been interest interest rates because interest rates do not create supply. So it had to be new supply. Where do we get the supply. Because this point about the willingness of Western politicians to pay for their politics, they were unwilling to push against the sanctions on Russia, Iran and Venezuela.

Jeff

You know, I did a calculation the other day looking at the US approved $95 billion in aid to Ukraine and Israel. But the turning a blind eye to the sanctions was funding Russia, Iran and Venezuela, another $90 billion like every six months. So, you know, I'm not talking out of two sides of their head, but it goes to the point.

Jeff

Unwilling to pay for the politics. The other area environmental policy. You look at China, India and Indonesia, the run up in coal production and consumption was the size of Saudi Arabia. And we wonder why this backs up gas and power all around the world. And also turning a blind eye to deforestation in Latin America for soybeans, cutting down the mangroves in Philippines, for more palm oil.

Jeff

So, you know, if it's not creating supply through, you know, turning a blind eye to environmental issues, you know, even here in the UK, we saw them back away and then the third point is in immigration where so you got more food, you got more energy and you got more people, which is the more supply that created the disinflation.

Jeff

But none of this is sustainable.

Amrita

But but you know, my challenge for this year, we think it's a very bullish Q3, Q2, we've now had the sell off. I think we should be around the bottom here. I don't know what you're thinking. I think we rally in Q3. The challenge I have for kind of recommending, yes, we are going to really go is we have US elections and I think you're going to see them exactly like you said, do anything and everything in their powers, including another SPR release for whatever grounds.

Amrita

That's it's also become, I think, government policy or, you know, in the past geopolitics. We should we we used to always think of it as bullish. Now politics has almost also become very bearish, precisely because no sanctions policy has actually been designed to keep oil out of the market. And if anything, you've got more and more SPR.

Jeff

Yep, absolutely. But you look at what drives voters, you know, on the on the scoring, I can't remember what the what the magnitudes represent, but economy inflation get a score of something like 25 or 30. Foreign policy gets like three, climate change gets two. So they talk a big game on climate change in foreign policy, but particularly to the average U.S voter, it doesn't matter.

Jeff

All that matters is the price of gasoline at the pump. And and with that kind of backdrop, yes, they're going to fight the increases in, in, oil prices. But I'm also the part of the reason why people like to like copper is they go, well, the governments don't care.

Amrita

Exactly. This is this is my worry. But but do you think then oil goes to 100 this year, or probably not this year.

Jeff

But by the way, the one thing is you get a shortage and and you have to clear the market, the ability for this market to pop above $100 a barrel. When we were seeing 92 just a few weeks ago, I don't know why people struggle with this. Again. My 27.5 years at Goldman, the one thing I absolutely learned always on the wings.

Jeff

The market radically underestimates the upside and the downside. I mean, that's all we ever did at Goldman. They're they're going, okay, this thing's going down. It's not going to stop at 45. It's going to go to 25. And if it's going up, it's not going to stop at 90. It's going to go all the way up to 100, 120 and then turn around and come crashing back down.

Jeff

It's the third most volatile of all the commodities behind power, natural gas and then and then oil. So yeah, you mean the ability for those thing to spike up over a hundred I think is is very material. And also when we think about what is a commodity supercycle, it is a sequence of price spikes. It's not this steady no low vol rise in prices.

Jeff

It's you know, the average price rises over time, but the spikes are very large and very violent.

Amrita

But then what do you say to people who say, if we go above 100, OPEC's just going to come and flood the market? I mean, I have my views on that, but what do you reckon.

Jeff

They do, by the way? I like to point this out. With all due respect for the current management, because I do think they could actually OPEC management could actually do this correctly, but there is no history. No, there is no evidence in history going back to 1960 that the in the second half of the business cycle, OPEC has ever brought on supply to be able to tame the price spike going into the latter parts of the business cycle.

Jeff

And if they miss by five days, by five days, they have a problem. Why? Because think about, a refinery sitting in, Rotterdam and, I've got, let's say three days of inventory sitting in my takes. That ship is five days away. It doesn't help me. I got two days. I got a cover. And you're going to bid up the price and you're going to create extreme backwardation in these markets.

Jeff

And that's ultimately the point here. So unless they're months early, which is very unlikely, they're going to be that early. It's unlikely they're going to bring that oil on in time. And again I'm going to go back to every business cycle since 1960, since the creation of OPEC, they have never done it. Think about what in these business cycles, every time it's a price spike in oil and they had the spare capacity to tame it.

Jeff

Yet they couldn't they couldn't bring it on in time.

Amrita

And especially now with the motto very much being we are cautious. We're going to actually look at, you know, all the noise that's coming through and also a big focus of theirs. Rightly so. Is this whole spot right? How much more SVR do you get if that? If you do get that, then why should we bring barrels back right.

Amrita

It's just becoming more and more political.

Jeff

And by the way, it's not in their interest to be early. Why why do we want to flood the market, create a big inventory bit.

Amrita

Like why is that the bit I don't understand a lot of our clients. We had an event here and they're like, look at the balances in Q3. It's the right time for OPEC to bring barrels back. I said, but the decision is on the first and 2nd of June, which is before what if we're all wrong just as an example.

Amrita

Right. And then why would they bring barrels back. And let's say we have this massive flood of inventory. Then they need to court again to manage that. I think somehow people miss that bit about the OPEC logic I find, which is which is fascinating. But let's go back to the dollar, because the point you are making is much more kind of global, right?

Amrita

In terms of this is a in terms of the kind of global financial system as well. Why do you think the recycling hasn't happened this this time around?

Jeff

I think it starts with Russia. You know, me ask you if you're if you're a China and you're earning a lot of dollars right now. Trade is flourishing there long, an enormous number of dollars. Are you going to buy US treasuries with everything you've seen over the last 24 months? Probably. Probably not. And we're not seeing those dollars flowing back into US treasuries, and instead they're going out and buying things like gold.

Jeff

And it's important. Let's let's go over what that, that dollar recycling story would do to oil and commodity prices. That you would see that let's say Saudi Arabia or China, where, where earned dollars in one of these bull markets. They would take those dollars, put them into U.S. treasuries. That makes U.S rates go down. The dollar begins to weaken.

Jeff

A weaker dollar reinforces reflation, the higher reflation, and more dollars generated in China and Saudi Arabia would create a credit multiplier outside of the U.S. And so you'd have more dollars to invest in and consume things. And so it was a virtuous cycle in this dollar recycling because the dollars would replenish themselves, grow outside of the United States and create more external demand, which then more stronger growth in China and Saudi Arabia and places like that would weaken the dollar.

Jeff

And so it was that virtuous cycle, and it was particularly important for metals less important for oil, but more important for metals. And to think that we're sitting here today, you know, we saw an $80 a barrel a few weeks ago and we saw, you know, $11,000 a ton copper in the context of a dollar as strong as we have right now, you kind of be ask yourself, what would these markets be looking like if the dollar had weakened?

Jeff

Like it normally would over this environment? So if they're not buying U.S. treasuries, what are they by? Physical goods? In fact, the announcement this morning China wants to build a strategic reserve of cobalt. Yeah. And they're buying things like copper. They're buying gold. And in particularly gold, gold is the market that is the most out of whack here.

Jeff

When you look at gold prices relative to real interest rates or the dollar, it's historically diverged at unprecedented levels. Who's buying it? It's China, and it's primarily Russia and other. Iraq would be another big buyer of gold. And we don't know what the numbers in Iran, I would assume they're big buyers over there as well. But what they're doing is they're replacing the dollar, recycling, with gold recycling.

Jeff

And, you know, are we I'm not going to go I'm not a gold bug and want to get into the implications of it, but it's telling you that the world's changing and we're going in a very different path. You know, I don't know how to handicap oil and commodities for the lack of dollar recycling. But the reason why I'm not going to say it's bearish is because eventually, if they're moving into building strategic stockpiles of cobalt, physical commodities, physical commodity demand.

Amrita

Yeah, I mean, they're also, from what I've heard, when we were there, they're also going to do about 60 million barrels of crude SVR. I don't think that's out in the market, but imagine 60 million barrels of crude spro in the second half of the year when we are supposed to be tight. Could absolutely to kind of get crude going now, they should be price sensitive.

Amrita

So it's not a given that they'll do it at $9,100. But you never know right. Again. China's the other side of OPEC. They're also slow. Once they start going then they almost become price insensitive. Right. If they decided on the strategic reserves. But you know, what I find fascinating in what you're saying is it leads me to the question we get asked all the time.

Amrita

Do you think oil moves away from the dollar? Like, do you think you basically get essentially oil no longer denominated in the dollar.

Jeff

For moving that direction? I mean, if you look at the transactions between many of the Bric countries and, you know, the external, I call the Em space, a lot of this has already been priced in local currency. A lot of the Indian oil that's being sold was traded in INR and not in USD anymore. Now, does that matter to markets?

Jeff

Absolutely not. You know, I like to point out the FX markets between London, New York, it's like $5 trillion a day. The oil market is a pimple on that. Yeah. No, it doesn't do anything. You know, and I don't, you know, in for commodities, it's a currency illusion. It's because it's the relative price of the commodities relative to the rest of your basket that actually matters here.

Jeff

So, I don't have my answer to that. Every time I get asked. That is, it's a currency illusion. It doesn't matter. The only way it would matter is if the oil market could impact the FX market. But oil's not big enough. Yeah.

Amrita

No, I, I completely agree with you. In which case, see, going forward, we're pretty much first half of the year is done. If you were recommending trades, which I know in your current position you don't directly do, but you know, put put that hat on what would be your top picks and you can go not just, commodities.

Amrita

You can go any asset class for that matter.

Jeff

I love commodities. And at this point in the business cycle. And let's go over a couple things that that that are apparent here is the one model that we've been using since the 90s called them was this whole idea of a mid-cycle pause is that once you see the rate hikes in the higher energy hit the economy, it goes through this period of consolidation to the higher interest rates.

Jeff

A higher commodity prices. And then you come out of the second half of that in the latter part of the business cycle. And that's when you really want to own commodities. That's what we saw at the beginning in 2024. And it's playing out in a textbook fashion. It's just happening at higher interest rate levels. And I think people had had thought, thought about the past.

Jeff

So this is the time you want to own the physical goods and your best performing asset classes year to date when you stack them up, or Bitcoin, which is a physical good as well as, you know, gold and income. I was one point on on Bitcoin and gold like to point out the rise in the gold market cap this year is larger than the entire market cap of Bitcoin.

Jeff

Gold is the bigger, more established one, but it's the the physical goods are the ones you want to own here. Now which one of the physical goods do we like the most? And I think I'm a consensus view three or, you know, 4 or 5 weeks ago was gold. Copper and, and, oil. And I still stick with that, though, the ones that have.

Jeff

And by the way, oil is the one that's backward dated. It's the one that's giving you the cheapest. It's the cheap. You can't give it away. I mean, you look at its investor positioning, you know, it's running at, you know, 14% right now. It's ridiculously low. But I want to go over another point here that people are getting worried about when they see it is that as you go into the second half of the business cycle, what happens is the growth rate slow, but the levels continue to grow.

Jeff

And one thing I've been pounding the table on for two and a half decades is for commodities. It's the level of demand that matters, not the growth rate of demand. As long as that level of demand is above the supply, which we know has to be the case, you did not get an inventory build. Again, the fundamentals in oil are better than copper.

Jeff

There is no inventory built. Well, there's a very small one. I think you're estimates at 33 million barrels. Which tells you the level of demand is above the level of supply. The forward curve tells you the level of demand is above the level of supply. And we're going to see the macro data slowdown. And if you still have pricing pressures and if the fed is inability where it can't cut, and if anything it has to raise rates.

Jeff

And I don't want to get into the, you know, the discussion around that, you know, the impact it will have on the financial markets will be very negative. But the physical goods that depend upon the levels, remember, one way you can think about it, financial markets are driven by expectations. Expectations are driven by growth rates. Commodities, they are spot assets and they're driven by the levels.

Jeff

That's why you get the outperformance of the commodities relative to financial. So this thing's playing out textbook case. And I don't see it being any different as we go into the maturity of the business cycle, which means you want to own, commodities. In which commodities do you want to own here? I'm going to say, you know, oil, copper and gold.

Jeff

And, I may be out on a limb, but I will tell you if I'm a, you know, if I knew nothing about the sentiment in these markets and looked at the fundamentals, I want to own oil. Out of those three.

Amrita

I couldn't agree more. I was going to ask you about the fed rate since you said, let's not go there. We will not go there because we want you to come back. Oh, let's let's continue this discussion. So thank you, Jeff, so much. And I will say to all our clients who've, who are going to listen to this, send us your feedback, send us questions.

Amrita

Hopefully we can convince Jeff to kind of come and do this on a regular basis. If you want to send in questions, we'll we'll kind of, you know, try and answer those as well. And we'll get Jeff, some hard questions next time. This this was too easy for you. Say yes.

Jeff

But it's a pleasure to be here. And thanks for inviting me.

Amrita

No, thank you so much. And, Yeah, thanks for listening, everyone.